It is now time for the Funeral.

[oldtrader]

The Southern Utah Forums have died, and the only thing left on them are the Mormon Haters, who have driven all of the intelligent discussions that once were held on these threads of of the forums, and the intelligent discussions that once were held are gone for good.

It is now time to have the funeral, and bury the forums as they deserve. I am glad that I no longer live in St George and now am able to live a new life and not be there for the death of what was once a good place for intelligent discussions.

[terry]

Originally Posted by oldtrader

The Southern Utah Forums have died, and the only thing left on them are the Mormon Haters, who have driven all of the intelligent discussions that once were held on these threads of of the forums, and the intelligent discussions that once were held are gone for good.

It is now time to have the funeral, and bury the forums as they deserve. I am glad that I no longer live in St George and now am able to live a new life and not be there for the death of what was once a good place for intelligent discussions.

The Forums have slowed down considerably, but not died. I have never seen hatred toward Mormons, just shock, surprise and incredulity as those of us who are Christian learned more and more about what Mormons believe and the people they believe in (the charlatan-criminal-sex pervert Joseph Smith and Brigham Young who instigated the Mountain Meadows massacre, had 32 or so wives). Are we supposed to applaud the practice of posthumous baptisms of people of other faiths, the prejudice against non-Mormons, the continued enabling and tolerance of polygamy throughout Utah and the continued hiring of illegal aliens by greedy developers, contractors, retailers and restaurant owners?

You mentioned how refreshing it is not to be asked what your religion is or see people compelled to go to church to keep their jobs, so you seem happy to be away from the predominant Mormon culture even though you are Mormon.

Intelligent people from the other 49 states know there is no censorship against speaking out against the hypocrisy and strangeness of institutionalized injustice. We fight back against those things. The established good ol boys in government and real estate should get over their Brigham Young complex and stop trying to con us because we see through it and, sooner rather than later, they'll be going down.

Brian was the most hateful poster and he is long-gone. If a lot of Mormons have left, it is because they can't justify why the King isn't wearing clothes.

[Desertgirl]

For crying out loud oldtrader...

We know you have moved, we are glad you are happy that you don't live here anymore. How many times are you going to say it? We heard you twice the first time!

Tho, you have to wonder, if you have to keep saying it maybe you are just trying to convince yourself.

[The Druid II]

If oldtrader is so happy where he is, how come he can't let go of St George?

[oldtrader]

terry

What you hear, is a lot of things taken out of context, and you actually are not learning anything about what Mormons believe or about their church. You are hearing hate mongers, spreading a lot of lies and filth, not the truth.

When you hear only part of something taken out of context by a person filled with hate, you are not getting the truth. If you are basing your knowledge on Mormons on what these hate mongers tell you, you have no idea of the truth.

And if you look, the Mormon haters are the only ones really posting today, so for all practical purposes the forums are dead.

If you look at some of the other states, you will find that the second behind the Catholics are the Mormons in number in such states as Oregon which is a lot of members. But you do not see the hatred against Mormons there as an example of Mormon Hating you see in St George. No I do not live in Oregon, just using it as an example I am very familiar with. I no longer live in St George, and say as many there say if you do not like things the way they are in St George, do as I have done and move away. I did not move because of the Mormons, I moved because there were other things that drove me from the area. Anyone that continues to live in an area they do no like and have as much hatred for the general population as I have seen on these threads that still lives in that area, is stupid and has no respect for themselves.

Question: If 90% of the population is happy with an area, why should they change to make the other 10% or less happy as long as they will allow the 10% to live in the area without persecution and discrimination because of race, color, religion, country of religion, etc. as protected by law.

[Mr Ed]

Originally Posted by oldtrader

terry

What you hear, is a lot of things taken out of context, and you actually are not learning anything about what Mormons believe or about their church. You are hearing hate mongers, spreading a lot of lies and filth, not the truth.

When you hear only part of something taken out of context by a person filled with hate, you are not getting the truth. If you are basing your knowledge on Mormons on what these hate mongers tell you, you have no idea of the truth.

And if you look, the Mormon haters are the only ones really posting today, so for all practical purposes the forums are dead.

If you look at some of the other states, you will find that the second behind the Catholics are the Mormons in number in such states as Oregon which is a lot of members. But you do not see the hatred against Mormons there as an example of Mormon Hating you see in St George. No I do not live in Oregon, just using it as an example I am very familiar with. I no longer live in St George, and say as many there say if you do not like things the way they are in St George, do as I have done and move away. I did not move because of the Mormons, I moved because there were other things that drove me from the area. Anyone that continues to live in an area they do no like and have as much hatred for the general population as I have seen on these threads that still lives in that area, is stupid and has no respect for themselves.

Question: If 90% of the population is happy with an area, why should they change to make the other 10% or less happy as long as they will allow the 10% to live in the area without persecution and discrimination because of race, color, religion, country of religion, etc. as protected by law.

If Mormons quit acting like they have to run/dictate everyone else's lifestyle here while making them feel second-class, maybe there wouldn't be so much animosity toward Mormons. And Oltrader, I doubt people come here with a pre-concieved attitude to dislike Mormons. That attitude probably developed from attitudes shown toward them. Again, consider it a reflection of yourselves. Hopefully, you'll fit in where you're at. Here are a few tips. Do not ask people their religion, and/or not make offensive comments when they say they're not of your religion. Don't imply them how you know everything and they don't know as much as you, or use sentences beginning with "Everyone wants..." & "Nobody wants..." to speak your own opinion.

People move to Utah for a variety of reasons. I would bet to become a mormon or adopt the mormon lifestyle are not at the top of the list of reasons. If mormons don't like that, then like Oldtrader, they can leave.

[goodbird]

I guess I live in a vacuum or am in denial. I never hear of such things as this:

If Mormons quit acting like they have to run/dictate everyone else's lifestyle here while making them feel second-class, maybe there wouldn't be so much animosity toward Mormons.

Except of course, on this forum, where everyone lives in anonimity. But in life outside of this vacuum, no one asks me about my religion, nor has my religion been maligned by non members. My best friend and riding partner asks about Mormonism but has no interest in converting. I respect that and he respects me. My wife's best friend is Four Square, yet she invites us often for dinner partys, or going to a movie. We love St George for the wholesome atmosphere that generally prevails. We came from a part of California which is taken over by gangs and drug dealers. It wasn't a safe place to be. Being a Mormon was just icing on the cake when it came to where I would retire too.

I admit some of our doctrine is hard to fathom. Not a few Mormons are just as perplexed as the "outsiders",but we do try to learn and understand them. No one is asked to do more in peril of life, job, or friends. Where does all the acrimony come from?

[terry]

Originally Posted by oldtrader

terry
What you hear, is a lot of things taken out of context, and you actually are not learning anything about what Mormons believe or about their church. You are hearing hate mongers, spreading a lot of lies and filth, not the truth.

I read about posthumous baptisms in the Deseret Morning News when they covered the outcry about the baptism of Simon Wiesenthal and then had to negate it because people found out about it and how LDS have been violating the agreement they made with Judaism in 1995 that they would stop baptizing holocaust victims and other Jewish people. It is not a lie that LDS baptized Hitler, his parents and mistress. It is not a lie when I am told by a young LDS matron that her non-LDS neighbors are "not members" but they're OK. The Deseret Morning News also had a very honest account of the babies born of incest who suffer with severe mental retardation and physical deformities who often die of Fumerase Deficiency. I read about it here and looked it up. The filth is in the truth. The continued tolerance of child abusing polygamists, paying them welfare benefits while more women and children suffer.

Frankly, I and other people I know who aren't Mormon, consider Mormons sort of quaint and often untrustworthy when it comes to doing business, which we have learned from experience. Too bad for them because we don't let them get away with it.

[goodbird]

terry: I sense you don't like Mormons. You have made up your mind on the basis of rumor.

You shouldn't attempt to combine the mainstream LDS church with the FLDS sect. WE don't practice polygamy, not since the late 1800's. The poor souls over in Colorado city do, and they are reaping the genetic error of their ways.

There was a violation of the 1995 agreement about baptizing Jews. I personally never heard of the agreement until recently, and I have been a member since 1990. I chalk it up to well meaning people, who likely had no idea they were baptizing Jewish folks. As far as the Hitler thing, I don't know the truth there, but I would doubt any well meaning member would make an effort to do that particular baptism. All ordinance work is done in temples, which many are local like ours. I suspect the problem lies in communication between those who speak for the church at large, and those actually doing the family research at the local level. Stranger things have happened.

Baptism by proxy (I'll explain it again) is only a service done in the name of an individual. That person is in the spirit world and still retains the right to accept or reject baptism. Since there is no body (death is separation of spirit and the body) they can't do it themselves and depend on those in the physical state to do it for them. If they accept baptism done by proxy, they still have to account for their lives before God. A Hitler or other madman won't be able to hide behind a proxy baptism to escape punishment for his or her deeds in this life.

[*casper*]

I don't think terry doesn't like Mormons.. I just think misinformation hit first.
I am not active, and have lived in Utah all my life, and I feel left out of a lot. In our neighborhood, they have picnics at the wardhouse all the time, with the Relief Society leaving little invites stuck to the doors of every house on my street except 3 (one being mine) . The only time "that feeling" upset me is when my kids were little. There were several families on our street that wouldn't let their children play with my girls because we were inactive... even tho my girls attended sunday school and later Mutual (can"t remember how to spell it).. But my grandsons are not experiencing this event.
My youngest brother is recently (I call him...) activated (LOL).. and on his way to be Bishop.. When we have a conversation, he is only half way there.
I feel like the LDS religion sets up its members for failure .... (my personal opinion from my experiences)
The older lady that lives across from me came over one day and announced how her family "liked us folks".. Oh well..
I try like hell to not let the "what religion" are you question to come up in a conversation... but it sneaks in there every time. So to those new to Utah... Yes, some of the Mo's are quirky, but so is everyone. To each his own... I am just glad I don't HAVE to be any religion.

[zjer]

All this LDS/Christian talk is killing this forum....


Get over yourselves "Christians", Mormons aren't the worst thing to happen to our community. Most of you Christians are so horrible at trying to convince the Mormons that they are wrong that I am ready to join the Mormon church just to shut you up.

[terry]

Originally Posted by goodbird

terry: I sense you don't like Mormons. You have made up your mind on the basis of rumor.

I like a lot of Mormons I've met, but there can be no denying there are some who are irritatingly delude themselves that they can put things over on newcomers when it comes to doing business with them, and some foolishly think we care if we're not invited to church activities. I have no problem not attending LDS socials and as our children are in college in other states, their social lives aren't a concern.

Just read Casper's post to see how difficult and hurtful it is for those who wish to be independent of LDS while still being a good friend and neighbor.

Goodbird, he point you close your eyes to about posthumous baptism ot know it and keep defending anyway is it is (A) presumptuous and rude, and (B) Weird and dishonest The example of baptizing Jews,who want no part of it and have a treaty that has been routinely violated by LDS, with Hitler and his ilk.

Other than that, pass the green jello.

[goodbird]

terry: I think you miss my point about the topic of posthumous baptism. It is a service rendered to the dead. They don't have to partake of it if they choose not to. Sort of like me building a motel for people to sleep in, but not if they don't want to. But its there if they do.

Goodbird, he point you close your eyes to about posthumous baptism ot know it and keep defending anyway is it is (A) presumptuous and rude, and (B) Weird and dishonest The example of baptizing Jews,who want no part of it and have a treaty that has been routinely violated by LDS, with Hitler and his ilk.

I don't think it is presumtuous, simply because its available if the departed soul wants it. It isn't rude because it harms no one and really shouldn't even offend, again it is there if its wanted. A service. Nothing more than that.

It isn't weird at all. Everyone knows that to come unto Jesus Christ requires a baptism. Says so in the New Testament. So what happens to the souls who depart this life without baptism? They can't be baptized by water in the spirit world because there isn't a body to dunk. We provide them with a body by proxy.


It isn't dishonest because it is a good faith effort to follow the Savior's teachings. Only non Christians would take offense, and I certainly understand how Jews and Muslims might. Chalk baptism of Hitler and other infamous peoples of history up to having mercy on their souls, though I doubt seriously they would welcome any mercy.

For me, and for you, it is a take it or leave it thing. I'm not offended at all if I choose not to be offended.

[oldtrader]

Casper and Terry

The Mormon Church and its members are like any group. That can be the Rotary Club, Daughters of the American Revolution, Mormon Church, Catholic Church, Greek Orthodox Church, Chamber Of Commerce, etc., etc. They have social functions for their members and guests. They are usually not open to outsiders without an invitation.

Why does this upset other people such as the complaints I see here about the Mormons.

The Mormons like the other groups in the area, would love you to join their group, if you would be interested. The only ones above that have complete lock out if you do not qualify, and then you are welcome if your family was here in this country before the American Revolution and one of your ancestors fought in the war as several of mine did is the DAR.

Casper, you say you are inactive and you resent the fact you are not part of what is going on in the Mormon social life around you. By your continued inactivity you have indicted over the years, that you do not want to be part of the social life built around the Mormon Church. Instead of being hurt an resentful, you should be glad that they are honoring your wishes and leaving you alone. You and I both know, that if you would let them know you want to become active and take part in things with them again, that the door remains open for you to do so and they would welcome you with open arms.

In every Bishopric Meeting (just members of the Bishopric), and other leadership meetings, they will bring up any inactive member they can think if, that feel may need contact with the church, and one of the first things they consider is to invite them to social opportunities at the church. Casper, they are holding the door open for you to return, and they are waiting to give you a chance to join them again.

Casper. If you want to find if I am right, call the Relief Society President and ask for you be allowed you to just attend the socials and get to know the members again and you will be welcome. Ask for Home Teachers, and once a month two men will come to your home and discuss anything you want to discuss about the church and they will be there to help you any way possible in time of need. Ask the relief society to give you visiting teachers, and the same will be except it will be two women that call on you each month. Try going to a few Sunday meetings at the church, and you will be made welcome.

The church does not set you up for failure, but you have to do your part a little bit if you want to be more accepted and made welcome at the socials, etc.

I have seen over the years, that some of the best and strongest members, are people that fell away from the church and decided to give it another chance. As they say, suddenly they feel like they are back home again, time after time.

You do not have to feel alone and not part of things, but you have to make the first step, or even just let them know you would like to be part of things even if it is just the socials.

[rdc]

INteresting discussion.

A couple of points. In St.G there is a difference whether people like to admit it or not. If you are not Mormon, you have in some places one foot out the door and you feel it. It is dissappearing though as the younger generation is taking over.

This may actually be more of a response to newcomers. Afterall for the older folks if you aren't Mormon you are probably a newcomer. I suppose that for them newcomers aren't a good thing in general because it changes their community and who can argue. St.G isn't what it used to be.

About baptism. You know all religions have their quirks, some more than others. Who cares if a church wants to baptize all these people by proxy. If they are right then those people have a chance. And doing it certainly doesn't hurt anyone unless of course you believe it could be true and don't want it to be.

Point is let people worship as they please right or wrong.

As for facts about the Mormon church there are some truths that people come up with that Mormons simply deny but then all churches have some "truths" that aren't true. It's just to bad that people within their churches can't take a hard look, make an honest evaluation of their own and either honestly back it up or rebuke it.

If all churches did that it wouldn't take long before they couldn't pick on each other because they would eventually all end up with the same beliefs.

Till then they are going to pick on each other.

One more point. Their is ignorance about the polygamists and the Mormons. To many people in this country believe that Mormons are polygamists. And in some cases I can't help but embellish the story to the point of creating envy. I love it when I get the response, "Really!?". For those that you can't their already made up minds you might as well as something to it that you know they would love to hear and believe.

Once I do that, I know that the next time they give out information about Mormon culture, the next listener isn't going to believe them because their story has become to preposterous.

For one thing is certain. A mind that is not open to any truth is open to any supporting lie.

Someone mentioned Brian, I remember him, he took a pounding and was so difficult to neutralize but someone else discovered that he was a math professor at Dixie. Must have been true because even though he denied it he was essentially gone in an instant never to be heard from again.

rdc